Another take on the present events: The ridiculous paragliders, the easy penetration of Israel's defenses, the easy taking of ideal hostages (festival frolickers)...all of this reeked of collaboration between Israeli operatives and Hamas operatives. (Both sides of the Israeli political press have more-than-hinted in the past at Bibi-Hamas connections.)
I think we may be looking at a demolition and evacuation rather than a war. A murderous affair, but not a war. I'm aware of how implausible that sounds but the degree of collaboration between US/Israel military intelligence and the constantly shifting and rebadged "terror" organisations is hardly secret.
Of course, it doesn't make much sense to me, an outsider. I'm guessing that a war reacting to terror rather than a forced evacuation of Gaza is easier to sell to the wider world, even to the wider Sunni world. It's a very hard sell, but the other is harder still.
And maybe it's not going to work. The blatant alignment with the Kurds in the Syrian expansion added to the perception of an open war on helpless Sunnis may be more than the Turks will tolerate. And if Turkey swings against Israel and its NATO partners...
Look, I'm not sure of any of this, and I'm a long-term admirer of Norman Finkelstein. I just can't buy the paragliders and the festival frolicker hostages. Seen too much fakery, smelt too much fakery in recent years. This looks and smells like fakery.
WORST-CASE SCENARIO FOR ISRAEL UNDER THE FINKELSTEIN PLAN
1. 🏠 Demographic Overhaul via Right of Return
• Millions of Palestinian refugees (or descendants) claim their right to return, mostly to areas now inside Israel proper (Haifa, Jaffa, Galilee).
• The Jewish majority vanishes—or becomes tenuous.
• Israel as a Jewish state ceases to exist. It becomes a binational state, potentially named “Israel-Palestine” or “Greater Palestine.”
🚨 Impact: Jewish Israelis may perceive this as national suicide. Internal civil unrest, brain drain, and emigration of secular Jews accelerate. Right-wing factions go underground or launch insurgencies.
________________________________________
2. 🗺️ Collapse of the Zionist Project
• If Finkelstein’s conditions are met—including full withdrawal to 1967 borders, East Jerusalem handed over, dismantling of settlements—then Zionism in its original form (a safe Jewish homeland) is effectively dismantled.
💥 Symbolic Fallout: Seen by many Israelis as a betrayal of the legacy of the Holocaust and a failure to provide a haven for global Jewry.
________________________________________
3. 🚪 Power Vacuum & Armed Factionalism
• Israel's withdrawal from the West Bank and blockade-lift in Gaza opens the floodgates:
o Armed groups (not just Hamas, but Islamic Jihad, PFLP, and Iranian-backed cells) gain influence.
o A power struggle emerges between Fatah, Hamas, and more extreme Islamist elements.
o Gaza's Iranian-aligned factions may bring missiles closer to Tel Aviv.
🎯 Result: Security deteriorates within months. Tel Aviv and other cities could face a new wave of attacks—only now with Israel holding no legal or military ground in those territories.
________________________________________
4. ⚖️ Prosecution of Israeli Leaders and Soldiers
• International courts finally get their chance:
o Israeli generals, politicians, and even soldiers face arrest warrants for war crimes.
o Travel becomes legally risky for former IDF brass and cabinet members.
o Israeli institutions lose credibility globally.
⚖️ Bonus nightmare: An Israeli prime minister is detained abroad. Domestic chaos ensues.
________________________________________
5. 💢 Settler Rebellion & Civil War
• 700,000 settlers live beyond the 1967 borders.
• Forced evacuations provoke:
o Armed settler militias.
o Riots in Jerusalem and the West Bank.
o Possibly a military split—some IDF units refuse to evict settlers.
🧨 Think Gaza withdrawal × 1,000.
________________________________________
6. 🔄 Arab World Turns the Tables
• The Arab League (and Iran) push for:
o Further dismantling of Israeli nuclear capabilities.
o Reparations for decades of Palestinian suffering.
o International mandates on internal Israeli laws deemed "discriminatory" (e.g., Law of Return).
🌍 Result: Israel goes from a regional superpower to a regulated pariah, depending on foreign peacekeeping forces to survive.
________________________________________
7. 🧠 National Identity Crisis
• Jewish Israelis grapple with the question: What are we now?
o A "state of all its citizens"?
o A minority with trauma-laden history?
o A secular democracy with no unique Jewish character?
😵 Outcome: Polarization deepens. Theocratic hardliners vs. cosmopolitan secularists. Chaos on Twitter. Op-eds galore.
________________________________________
🧾 Summary: Israel’s Nightmare Checklist
Category Consequence
Demographics Loss of Jewish majority, binational state, possible Jewish emigration
Security Renewed attacks, rise of radical groups, destabilization
Law & Diplomacy ICC indictments, loss of travel access for officials, UN scrutiny
Internal Stability Civil war with settlers, military insubordination, collapse of Zionist consensus
National Identity Existential confusion over being a "Jewish state"
Regional Power Status Loss of deterrence, emboldened adversaries, possible demands for disarmament
________________________________________
🧠 Bottom Line:
If Finkelstein's plan becomes reality without ironclad security guarantees and political consensus, Israel could unravel from within—facing existential, not just territorial, threats.
That said… is this inevitable? Not necessarily. A modified, realistic peace plan that addresses both Palestinian rights and Israeli security could thread the needle. But Finkelstein’s vision? It’s radical justice, not pragmatic diplomacy.
Under a true worst-case scenario, extrapolating far beyond Finkelstein’s intended vision—but acknowledging deep-seated fears among many Israelis and Jews globally—you arrive at the nightmare of nightmares: the potential for genocidal violence should hostile, radical elements like Hamas or more extreme factions take full control of a post-Israeli state.
8.🔥 The Ultimate Nightmare Scenario:
If Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or other jihadist groups gained complete military and political control over Israel/Palestine, without checks from the international community or internal Palestinian moderates, and acted according to their most extreme rhetoric and charter positions, then:
________________________________________
☠️ Possibility: Mass Atrocities or Genocidal Acts
• Execution of Israeli civilians, especially settlers and former military personnel.
• Targeted massacres of Jews remaining in the territory, framed as revenge for decades of occupation.
• Systematic purging of Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Haifa.
• Looting, rape, and humiliation of civilians as part of a "purification" campaign.
• International media blackout or indifference, allowing atrocities to proceed unchecked.
⚠️ This would not be traditional war, but rather an ideological and religiously framed vendetta, in which Jews could be treated as interlopers or "occupying crusaders" to be wiped out.
________________________________________
🛑 Historical Parallels (the dark echoes):
• Einsatzgruppen-style mass executions: Mobile death squads operating in towns and villages, systematically executing groups of Jews.
• Extermination camps? Less likely given the resource intensity—but mass executions and field slaughter could be functionally similar.
• Ethnic cleansing of Bosnia/Kosovo scale: Forced expulsions, concentration zones, starvation sieges, and selective killing.
________________________________________
🔥 Would Hamas actually do this?
While some Hamas leaders have moderated language in political contexts, the original 1988 Hamas Charter openly calls for:
• The destruction of Israel.
• A religious war until the land is “redeemed” through jihad.
• Rejection of any permanent peace.
The updated 2017 Hamas document is more politically nuanced, but does not recognize Israel, and still affirms “armed resistance” as the path to liberation. Some leaders have made antisemitic statements in both political and religious contexts.
So while this scenario is not inevitable—and would depend on a total breakdown of order, international law, and restraint—it can’t be dismissed as pure fantasy. The hatred exists. And in a vacuum of power, atrocity becomes possible.
________________________________________
🧠 Final Thought:
Finkelstein may be advocating for human rights, not revenge—but in the real world, radical power vacuums get filled by the most organized and ideologically extreme actors. Without enforceable safeguards, the collapse of Israel could end not in peace—but in pogroms.
True, and especially when there is so much hate and propaganda flying around. I pretty much discount everything that doesn’t promote peace, and compassion for people on BOTH sides.
I see you have been reading a lot of anti-Israel stuff. There are a lot of evil Jews, yes, but every people group has that. And people like the Rothschilds and other Jews are not Zionists, they were against the re-forming of Israel from the start. Our own government also is crammed with evil people. I am all for compassion towards Palestinians, but where is the compassion for Jewish people? And as far as the evil comparison goes, the Israeli government in recent history has responded to its own people’s complaints- as you mentioned in your article many times. And when they were softer towards the Palestinian “nation”, they suffered for it. Many Palestinians do live and work in Israel, but no Jew would survive in Palestine openly. Israel also allows Muslims and Christians and builds good things in their country. Most of the Hamas and Palestinian leaders live in rich Qatar, and they only build schools and hospitals in Palestine to cover up their headquarters and military operations. I’m not saying there isn’t evil in Israel, I’m just saying- be fair. They have a right to exist. They are people too.
Probably wasting your time on this platform Mary. People pick the "facts" they want and much is driven by a distinct antisemitism that has arisen (again) in these last days (as evidenced here). The Bible is clear on these prophetic events, and it will only get worse going forward. As they say, things are not falling apart, they are falling into place.
I know, Rick. But my hope is that I might help a more honest soul to not be sucked into all this hate-mongering. Nations can’t be saved, but individuals can.
I kinda like Finkelstein with his nasal delivery. IMO, the only reason he hasn't fallen out a window or took one between the eyes is because he prefaces most speeches with "I lost my whole family in the Holocaust". Israeli Jews love that shit.
Now do Israeli terrorism. The Israeli state was founded on terrorism and was built on terrorism. It was Israelis who taught the Palestinians how to bomb marketplaces and buses, even how to do suicide bombings. The 1930s and 1940s prior to the Nakba was a sea of daily Zionist terror bombings and shootings. Every train, bus, police station, fire station, movie theatre and hotel was bombed during that period. British, Palestinian, and even uncooperative Jews were shot on the street. This is all verified by the British War College archives, the Israeli archives, the Palestine press, and the diaries of people who were there. At the same time, Zionists began the practice, continued today, of assassinating thousands of public officials and other "enemies" around the world. In the last 77 years, the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli terror dwarfs the number of Israelis and other killed by Palestinians and their resistance organization by thousands to one. Sources (among many others):
Thomas Suarez, State of Terror
Rosemarie Esber, Under the Cover of War
Jeremy Hammond, Obstacle to Peace
John Quigley, The Legality of a Jewish State
Adam Raz, Loot: How Israel Stole Palestinian Property
Can't argue with that said. Most don't know that those "savages" aka American Indians learned how to scalp from the French. They never did such a thing until the French did it to their people. Sound familiar?
LOL--just me and all those pesky historians, many of them Israeli. You do know that the three Zionist terrorist organizations kept records also, and were very proud of their work, right? They also have archives. They recruited 12 and 13 year olds to do bombing. Some of their descendants are in Israeli government today, like Tzipi Hotovely.
ROFLMAO. You are so ignorant I'm amazed you can tie your own shoes. Do you think Unbekoming is "woke"? You wouldn't know "woke" if it bit you. Wokeness has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, you cretin. International law scholars in their 60s and 70s are "woke"? John Mearsheimer at the University of Chicago is "woke"? Libertarians are "woke"? Maybe you think Candace Owens is "woke." Perhaps you think Hannah Arendt was woke. Avi Shlaim. Tom Negev. Schlomo Sand. Benjamin Beit-Hallami. Schlomo Ben-Ami. Jeff Halper. Sara Roy. Baruch Kimmerling. Simha Flapan. Noga Kadman. Oren Yftachel. Hajo Meyer. All those Israeli historians are so "woke." JFC read a damned book.
Another take on the present events: The ridiculous paragliders, the easy penetration of Israel's defenses, the easy taking of ideal hostages (festival frolickers)...all of this reeked of collaboration between Israeli operatives and Hamas operatives. (Both sides of the Israeli political press have more-than-hinted in the past at Bibi-Hamas connections.)
I think we may be looking at a demolition and evacuation rather than a war. A murderous affair, but not a war. I'm aware of how implausible that sounds but the degree of collaboration between US/Israel military intelligence and the constantly shifting and rebadged "terror" organisations is hardly secret.
Of course, it doesn't make much sense to me, an outsider. I'm guessing that a war reacting to terror rather than a forced evacuation of Gaza is easier to sell to the wider world, even to the wider Sunni world. It's a very hard sell, but the other is harder still.
And maybe it's not going to work. The blatant alignment with the Kurds in the Syrian expansion added to the perception of an open war on helpless Sunnis may be more than the Turks will tolerate. And if Turkey swings against Israel and its NATO partners...
Look, I'm not sure of any of this, and I'm a long-term admirer of Norman Finkelstein. I just can't buy the paragliders and the festival frolicker hostages. Seen too much fakery, smelt too much fakery in recent years. This looks and smells like fakery.
Hamas schmamas. These "Hamas operatives" are straight from Mossad central casting.
WORST-CASE SCENARIO FOR ISRAEL UNDER THE FINKELSTEIN PLAN
1. 🏠 Demographic Overhaul via Right of Return
• Millions of Palestinian refugees (or descendants) claim their right to return, mostly to areas now inside Israel proper (Haifa, Jaffa, Galilee).
• The Jewish majority vanishes—or becomes tenuous.
• Israel as a Jewish state ceases to exist. It becomes a binational state, potentially named “Israel-Palestine” or “Greater Palestine.”
🚨 Impact: Jewish Israelis may perceive this as national suicide. Internal civil unrest, brain drain, and emigration of secular Jews accelerate. Right-wing factions go underground or launch insurgencies.
________________________________________
2. 🗺️ Collapse of the Zionist Project
• If Finkelstein’s conditions are met—including full withdrawal to 1967 borders, East Jerusalem handed over, dismantling of settlements—then Zionism in its original form (a safe Jewish homeland) is effectively dismantled.
💥 Symbolic Fallout: Seen by many Israelis as a betrayal of the legacy of the Holocaust and a failure to provide a haven for global Jewry.
________________________________________
3. 🚪 Power Vacuum & Armed Factionalism
• Israel's withdrawal from the West Bank and blockade-lift in Gaza opens the floodgates:
o Armed groups (not just Hamas, but Islamic Jihad, PFLP, and Iranian-backed cells) gain influence.
o A power struggle emerges between Fatah, Hamas, and more extreme Islamist elements.
o Gaza's Iranian-aligned factions may bring missiles closer to Tel Aviv.
🎯 Result: Security deteriorates within months. Tel Aviv and other cities could face a new wave of attacks—only now with Israel holding no legal or military ground in those territories.
________________________________________
4. ⚖️ Prosecution of Israeli Leaders and Soldiers
• International courts finally get their chance:
o Israeli generals, politicians, and even soldiers face arrest warrants for war crimes.
o Travel becomes legally risky for former IDF brass and cabinet members.
o Israeli institutions lose credibility globally.
⚖️ Bonus nightmare: An Israeli prime minister is detained abroad. Domestic chaos ensues.
________________________________________
5. 💢 Settler Rebellion & Civil War
• 700,000 settlers live beyond the 1967 borders.
• Forced evacuations provoke:
o Armed settler militias.
o Riots in Jerusalem and the West Bank.
o Possibly a military split—some IDF units refuse to evict settlers.
🧨 Think Gaza withdrawal × 1,000.
________________________________________
6. 🔄 Arab World Turns the Tables
• The Arab League (and Iran) push for:
o Further dismantling of Israeli nuclear capabilities.
o Reparations for decades of Palestinian suffering.
o International mandates on internal Israeli laws deemed "discriminatory" (e.g., Law of Return).
🌍 Result: Israel goes from a regional superpower to a regulated pariah, depending on foreign peacekeeping forces to survive.
________________________________________
7. 🧠 National Identity Crisis
• Jewish Israelis grapple with the question: What are we now?
o A "state of all its citizens"?
o A minority with trauma-laden history?
o A secular democracy with no unique Jewish character?
😵 Outcome: Polarization deepens. Theocratic hardliners vs. cosmopolitan secularists. Chaos on Twitter. Op-eds galore.
________________________________________
🧾 Summary: Israel’s Nightmare Checklist
Category Consequence
Demographics Loss of Jewish majority, binational state, possible Jewish emigration
Security Renewed attacks, rise of radical groups, destabilization
Law & Diplomacy ICC indictments, loss of travel access for officials, UN scrutiny
Internal Stability Civil war with settlers, military insubordination, collapse of Zionist consensus
National Identity Existential confusion over being a "Jewish state"
Regional Power Status Loss of deterrence, emboldened adversaries, possible demands for disarmament
________________________________________
🧠 Bottom Line:
If Finkelstein's plan becomes reality without ironclad security guarantees and political consensus, Israel could unravel from within—facing existential, not just territorial, threats.
That said… is this inevitable? Not necessarily. A modified, realistic peace plan that addresses both Palestinian rights and Israeli security could thread the needle. But Finkelstein’s vision? It’s radical justice, not pragmatic diplomacy.
Under a true worst-case scenario, extrapolating far beyond Finkelstein’s intended vision—but acknowledging deep-seated fears among many Israelis and Jews globally—you arrive at the nightmare of nightmares: the potential for genocidal violence should hostile, radical elements like Hamas or more extreme factions take full control of a post-Israeli state.
8.🔥 The Ultimate Nightmare Scenario:
If Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or other jihadist groups gained complete military and political control over Israel/Palestine, without checks from the international community or internal Palestinian moderates, and acted according to their most extreme rhetoric and charter positions, then:
________________________________________
☠️ Possibility: Mass Atrocities or Genocidal Acts
• Execution of Israeli civilians, especially settlers and former military personnel.
• Targeted massacres of Jews remaining in the territory, framed as revenge for decades of occupation.
• Systematic purging of Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Haifa.
• Looting, rape, and humiliation of civilians as part of a "purification" campaign.
• International media blackout or indifference, allowing atrocities to proceed unchecked.
⚠️ This would not be traditional war, but rather an ideological and religiously framed vendetta, in which Jews could be treated as interlopers or "occupying crusaders" to be wiped out.
________________________________________
🛑 Historical Parallels (the dark echoes):
• Einsatzgruppen-style mass executions: Mobile death squads operating in towns and villages, systematically executing groups of Jews.
• Extermination camps? Less likely given the resource intensity—but mass executions and field slaughter could be functionally similar.
• Ethnic cleansing of Bosnia/Kosovo scale: Forced expulsions, concentration zones, starvation sieges, and selective killing.
________________________________________
🔥 Would Hamas actually do this?
While some Hamas leaders have moderated language in political contexts, the original 1988 Hamas Charter openly calls for:
• The destruction of Israel.
• A religious war until the land is “redeemed” through jihad.
• Rejection of any permanent peace.
The updated 2017 Hamas document is more politically nuanced, but does not recognize Israel, and still affirms “armed resistance” as the path to liberation. Some leaders have made antisemitic statements in both political and religious contexts.
So while this scenario is not inevitable—and would depend on a total breakdown of order, international law, and restraint—it can’t be dismissed as pure fantasy. The hatred exists. And in a vacuum of power, atrocity becomes possible.
________________________________________
🧠 Final Thought:
Finkelstein may be advocating for human rights, not revenge—but in the real world, radical power vacuums get filled by the most organized and ideologically extreme actors. Without enforceable safeguards, the collapse of Israel could end not in peace—but in pogroms.
Oct 7 was bs. A completely staged event.
Did you see the AI generated films about it?
Receipts?
I assume you have evidence?
Hasbara alert!
So much to sift and search for the truth
True, and especially when there is so much hate and propaganda flying around. I pretty much discount everything that doesn’t promote peace, and compassion for people on BOTH sides.
I see you have been reading a lot of anti-Israel stuff. There are a lot of evil Jews, yes, but every people group has that. And people like the Rothschilds and other Jews are not Zionists, they were against the re-forming of Israel from the start. Our own government also is crammed with evil people. I am all for compassion towards Palestinians, but where is the compassion for Jewish people? And as far as the evil comparison goes, the Israeli government in recent history has responded to its own people’s complaints- as you mentioned in your article many times. And when they were softer towards the Palestinian “nation”, they suffered for it. Many Palestinians do live and work in Israel, but no Jew would survive in Palestine openly. Israel also allows Muslims and Christians and builds good things in their country. Most of the Hamas and Palestinian leaders live in rich Qatar, and they only build schools and hospitals in Palestine to cover up their headquarters and military operations. I’m not saying there isn’t evil in Israel, I’m just saying- be fair. They have a right to exist. They are people too.
Probably wasting your time on this platform Mary. People pick the "facts" they want and much is driven by a distinct antisemitism that has arisen (again) in these last days (as evidenced here). The Bible is clear on these prophetic events, and it will only get worse going forward. As they say, things are not falling apart, they are falling into place.
I know, Rick. But my hope is that I might help a more honest soul to not be sucked into all this hate-mongering. Nations can’t be saved, but individuals can.
I kinda like Finkelstein with his nasal delivery. IMO, the only reason he hasn't fallen out a window or took one between the eyes is because he prefaces most speeches with "I lost my whole family in the Holocaust". Israeli Jews love that shit.
Now do Israeli terrorism. The Israeli state was founded on terrorism and was built on terrorism. It was Israelis who taught the Palestinians how to bomb marketplaces and buses, even how to do suicide bombings. The 1930s and 1940s prior to the Nakba was a sea of daily Zionist terror bombings and shootings. Every train, bus, police station, fire station, movie theatre and hotel was bombed during that period. British, Palestinian, and even uncooperative Jews were shot on the street. This is all verified by the British War College archives, the Israeli archives, the Palestine press, and the diaries of people who were there. At the same time, Zionists began the practice, continued today, of assassinating thousands of public officials and other "enemies" around the world. In the last 77 years, the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli terror dwarfs the number of Israelis and other killed by Palestinians and their resistance organization by thousands to one. Sources (among many others):
Thomas Suarez, State of Terror
Rosemarie Esber, Under the Cover of War
Jeremy Hammond, Obstacle to Peace
John Quigley, The Legality of a Jewish State
Adam Raz, Loot: How Israel Stole Palestinian Property
Ronan Bergman, Rise and Kill First
Peter Shambrook, Policy of Deceit
Can't argue with that said. Most don't know that those "savages" aka American Indians learned how to scalp from the French. They never did such a thing until the French did it to their people. Sound familiar?
LOL--just me and all those pesky historians, many of them Israeli. You do know that the three Zionist terrorist organizations kept records also, and were very proud of their work, right? They also have archives. They recruited 12 and 13 year olds to do bombing. Some of their descendants are in Israeli government today, like Tzipi Hotovely.
ROFLMAO. You are so ignorant I'm amazed you can tie your own shoes. Do you think Unbekoming is "woke"? You wouldn't know "woke" if it bit you. Wokeness has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, you cretin. International law scholars in their 60s and 70s are "woke"? John Mearsheimer at the University of Chicago is "woke"? Libertarians are "woke"? Maybe you think Candace Owens is "woke." Perhaps you think Hannah Arendt was woke. Avi Shlaim. Tom Negev. Schlomo Sand. Benjamin Beit-Hallami. Schlomo Ben-Ami. Jeff Halper. Sara Roy. Baruch Kimmerling. Simha Flapan. Noga Kadman. Oren Yftachel. Hajo Meyer. All those Israeli historians are so "woke." JFC read a damned book.
What about Israeli carpetbaggers targeting Gazan real estate.